Swamiji provides profound insights into the rising trend of atheism in New Zealand. Discover the intriguing reasons behind why more people are identifying as atheists and how Vedanta’s perspective on God contrasts with traditional views.
Our senses often deceive us into believing that happiness lies in external pleasures. This episode uncovers the complex relationship between our sensory experiences and the pursuit of lasting joy. We delve into humanity's relentless quest for knowledge and the ways technology attempts to amplify our sensory capabilities, only to find that true fulfillment remains elusive. Swamiji breaks down these intricacies, highlighting our inherent drive for understanding and the limitations of seeking infinite happiness through finite means.
The path to spiritual awakening is paved with diverse practices and profound realizations. By examining the inward journey of nivritti and the outward pursuit of pravritti, Swamiji illustrates how even atheists can attain divine realization over many lifetimes. This conversation emphasizes the importance of recognizing the divine essence within ourselves and others, ultimately redefining what true religion means in the context of Vedanta. Join us as we explore how to connect with our true nature and practice personal spirituality beyond traditional religious frameworks. Don’t miss this enlightening discussion with Swami Tadananda that promises to redefine your understanding of spirituality.
Swamiji provides profound insights into the rising trend of atheism in New Zealand. Discover the intriguing reasons behind why more people are identifying as atheists and how Vedanta’s perspective on God contrasts with traditional views.
Our senses often deceive us into believing that happiness lies in external pleasures. This episode uncovers the complex relationship between our sensory experiences and the pursuit of lasting joy. We delve into humanity's relentless quest for knowledge and the ways technology attempts to amplify our sensory capabilities, only to find that true fulfillment remains elusive. Swamiji breaks down these intricacies, highlighting our inherent drive for understanding and the limitations of seeking infinite happiness through finite means.
The path to spiritual awakening is paved with diverse practices and profound realizations. By examining the inward journey of nivritti and the outward pursuit of pravritti, Swamiji illustrates how even atheists can attain divine realization over many lifetimes. This conversation emphasizes the importance of recognizing the divine essence within ourselves and others, ultimately redefining what true religion means in the context of Vedanta. Join us as we explore how to connect with our true nature and practice personal spirituality beyond traditional religious frameworks. Don’t miss this enlightening discussion with Swami Tadananda that promises to redefine your understanding of spirituality.
Namaste listeners my name is Sunil and I'm with Swami Tadananda from the Ramakrishna Vedanta Centre of Auckland, new Zealand, for yet another episode of Rhythm. Swamiji, how are you and how was your week?
Speaker 2:
Good. I must say it's been very cold over the last one week. We've been a bit busy over the last two weeks visiting the new Vedanta Retreat Centre, weeks visiting the new Vedanta Retreat Centre. We purchased it what say seven, eight weeks ago and we're trying to set it up so that we can begin to have our retreats and other programs. So yeah we've been busy there, oh good, good.
Speaker 1:
When do you plan on starting retreats? Is there a rough timeline? Is it within a month or by the end of the year, when it's a bit warmer? Is there a rough timeline, is it?
Speaker 2:
within a month or by the end of the year when it's a bit warmer. No, we'll probably give a trial run once we've got the accommodations organized, hopefully in a month's time, and when all things are in place, then we can have more regular programs and let people know who are interested to attend them. Excellent, good.
Speaker 1:
Okay, Swamiji, today shall we take up an important observation in the society on spirituality, Especially looking at atheists. Atheists people that do not believe in religion. In 2013, this was around 42%, which then increased to 48% in 2018. 6% increase in non-believers. This is just in New Zealand. We'll probably have similar trends across the world. We don't have the data for the 2023 census yet, but I suspect that it will be trending up again. More than 50%, More than 50% possibility. Swamiji, any idea on why this would be the case?
Speaker 2:
I think to answer that question, Sunil, we probably have to put ourselves in the shoes or in the mind of the various people who have responded. Not everyone has the same understanding of the word God or religion, and so everyone responds from their own perspective, perspectives we discussed in the past, you know. And so if one has been brought up in a very religious family, so to say, then the mind is colored with those spiritual ideas. To them there's a being, God, to whom they pray, there's a religion, a prophet, a book they follow. But on the other hand, if a child is brought up in a family where such support was not provided parents didn't give that support in school, so naturally such a person would not have much idea about religion and God. And many people would say if you don't understand something, don't know something, then you say I don't believe in those things. Because, look, the word God means different things for different people. To some he's a being out there in heaven sitting on a chair in the silver robe, long white hair and silver beard, and he's the one who decides whether we go to heaven or hell. Another, he's some being out there again, extra cosmic, being separate from the world, and he sends his messenger now and then, and that messenger gives the teachings and that becomes the holy scripture of those people and they just need to follow that without questioning yeah, prescriptively.
Speaker 2:
Yes, Others are there. Another religion is there in which they don't believe in God. Okay, Buddhism, for example. They don't believe in God, they don't believe in the soul also. And then on the other side we have Hinduism, which has got so many gods and goddesses, which are all forms of that one being One ocean, appearing as different ways, but you have so many choices to suit your temperament, so to say, and they are all very happy with that. So, depending on where we are born in our upbringing, I think all those are important factors when people respond to a census and say do they believe in God or do they have a religion?
Speaker 1:
That's right. What about Vedanta? What does Vedanta have to say about this?
Speaker 2:
Well, first we have to understand what Vedanta is. Then, and what's the basis of Vedanta? Vedanta according to Swami Vivekananda. He gives a very nice definition about atheism. So he says the old religion said he's an atheist who does not believe in God. The new religion, the Vedanta, says he's an atheist, really, who does not believe in himself or herself.
Speaker 1:
Right, okay, that's quite deep.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so one is an extra cosmic being, somewhere totally separate from the world. Who has created the world and all these beings? Who's supposed to be all powerful? Who's supposed to help people, guide people, protect people and all those things and maintain some order? And when we see more and more chaos, disorder, wars, natural disasters, diseases, then people question is the guy out there who's supposed to maintain everything, nicely, taking care of us because we're supposed to be his children? Has he lost the plot? Has he lost his control? Apparently there's more of the evil, or the side of things you might say it's disruptive. So is there somebody still in control? And that's where those who are expecting a being out there to be doing that find nothing like that happens. So they say, hey, there's no guy out there, all right.
Speaker 2:
But Vedanta says the being whom we call God really is not out there but is imminent in everything within us. When I say within us, it means, as in the beginning we, the first episode we talked about different dimensions of a human being the physical, another mental, the intellectual intelligence, and then we say there's a consciousness being, that consciousness that is in me, in you, here and now, with the help of which I am talking, in your listening, and all the activities that are happening. The five senses are functioning, the mind is functioning, the physical activities are functioning. That is a spark, a ray of that infinite consciousness. So am I in touch with that? Of course I am. Okay. So this is how we define God.
Speaker 2:
Well then, are we God, or where is that God? It is in anyone and everyone, but the manifestation of that power is more or less in different people. Yeah, and so it's just like the example we use of having this 240 volt electricity flowing through different light bulbs in a house, but different bulbs give different amount of light depending on the voltage, but the voltage is the same. Likewise, the underlying consciousness that is present in everything is same, but in some places it's manifested more, in some it is less. So. If you truly believe in yourself, like everyone would say yes, I believe in myself, in my own goodness, in my strength, in my intelligence, in my capacity to think, rationalize and achieve certain goals, of course without. If you don't have that belief, then nothing happens in life. Everyone has got, some have got more, some have less. Okay, but everyone believes in themselves. Yes, and if you have that, according to Vedanta, then you're not an atheist, right.
Speaker 1:
So do you mean, whether we know it or not, we're all seeking the same truth, of course?
Speaker 2:
Some are doing it knowingly. Others are still pursuing the same truth. Of course, some are doing it knowingly. Others are still pursuing the same goal, unknowingly. Okay.
Speaker 1:
Okay, so would the people that are pursuing it unknowingly. Is what we're calling them atheist?
Speaker 2:
Well. Well, if they don't want to say that, I'm perceiving. So let us define what is God according to Vedanta. And then we come to answer the question. So let us say everyone out here, no one is sitting still Everyone gets up and does something. We are seeking for something, looking for something. We are making an effort every day to get out God in the world. Make an attempt, call it work, but there's a goal to something, there's something driving that, and it's not only human beings, all living beings. So we can, if we can, come across some generalization for all beings. Let's try that. What are we all seeking for? Have some common thing that we can. If we can's try that, what are we all seeking for? Have some common thing that we can. If we can agree on that. So yeah, what are you seeking for?
Speaker 1:
Well, peace, happiness knowledge.
Speaker 2:
That's a good one. So let us say happiness. Everyone wants happiness, of course. Everyone wants to be happy, and we wish others to be happy. Happy birthday, happy new year and all those special occasions. And so where are we seeking for happiness?
Speaker 1:
Seeking from our friends, our family, celebrating occasions and events, and so on. Outside, outside, yeah, outside me.
Speaker 2:
Okay.
Speaker 2:
So out there. So let us have a look at that. Every day we get up, we open, wake up and the world wake up to the world. We're not there. That means when our five senses begin to function eyes, see, ears, hear and all that the world feeds into us. Using the senses, yeah, senses, okay. All that the world feeds into us, yeah, using the senses, yeah, senses, okay.
Speaker 2:
So these are the channels through which we receive energy. Yeah, some of that energy light, sound, heat, whatever is there increases the level of our joy. You know, it makes us feel good. Some might increase it significantly and you become very happy. There's a sense of pleasure and all those things are there and certain things had some experiences might be that, you know, know, it has the opposite effect. You feel the pain. Okay, so two things.
Speaker 2:
We say that the outside world is feeding us. We understand that the outside world is the source of happiness. Okay, whether it's right or wrong is another thing, but that is common understanding. Happiness, okay, whether it's right or wrong is another thing, but that is common understanding. And the means, the channels through which that external world is impinging in my mind, because happiness is felt in the mind. Okay, are these five senses. So we make an effort. If some particular thing gives us happiness, then we want more of happiness, then we want more of it and that's how we want to pursue and keep that happiness lingering, the pleasure continuing. But we have to understand that these five senses are limited in the sense.
Speaker 2:
So you eat something nice, maybe love ice cream or something you know the first lick is very tasty. But if somebody asks you to finish a whole one liter container of ice cream, you know the end is not so good as the first and maybe now it's a bit painful also. So the same thing which gave pleasure in the beginning is now painful in the end and you leave the lose, the sensitivity, the tongue doesn't taste it as much, yes, okay. Same thing you go into a holiday, sit down on the beach and you see the sunrise and sunset for the first day and say, wow, it's so beautiful. But after two, three weeks it doesn't have the same impact. See, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:
So likewise we come to the conclusion that all pleasure comes, happiness comes, through the five senses and how we process that in your mind. You know if you're in a very good mood, something would give you a very, very happy experience, but when you're not in a very good mood, like somebody's passed you in a family, then all those things. Watching a movie is not fun. Having a conversation with your friend would not be so pleasurable, because something has clouded your mind. You're not in that mood for it, like you say. So we are all seeking. The thing is, we are all seeking for help, we understanding that. Our understanding is that we, as pleasure comes from, happiness comes from outside, and we have these five senses and we want to perpetuate that, increase that, to continue that sense of joy. But logic tells us that, look, that infinite happiness that we all want cannot be got by finite means.
Speaker 2:
Okay, yep, okay, the infinite cannot be attained by finite means. So you get a little pleasure here, then a little pleasure there, and we keep on running around this, that, around that in our life to somehow to keep a degree of happiness and pleasure and well-being in our mind. That's the common man or animal even doing that. So that is. But everyone is thinking the same thing. Is everyone thinking the same thing?
Speaker 1:
More or less, more or less Happiness.
Speaker 2:
Everyone throughout the world is thinking.
Speaker 1:
No one is thinking Changing jobs, moving cities, countries, yeah, in pursuit of happiness.
Speaker 2:
And it's ever elusive. Yes you, happiness and it's ever elusive. Yes, you know, you think it's there, and then you, when you go there, you get a little bit of that, but then it's not how you imagined it to be okay, or sometimes it's totally opposite, you know, and sometimes it backfires also, and sometimes you say it was not worth it, it was more painful in the end and the little happiness, that joy, pleasure brought in the beginning. So all those things, they come through our experiences. But even then one does not give up that pursuit and say, hey, I've had a look at the world and there's no happiness there and therefore I'm not going to make an effort. Somehow it's built in our DNA type of thing, the pursuit of happiness. And the second one you mentioned already is search for knowledge. We all want to know. You know constantly in our minds what, where, when, why, how, okay, those questions are popping up and a child will keep on asking. That Grown up man makes an effort to acquire more knowledge. But how does, how do we acquire knowledge? Again, the channels are the same. These are called the jnana indriyas instruments of knowledge Eyes, ears, nose, skin and tongue. And so we are constantly trying to do that Using phones.
Speaker 2:
Using phones, we try to enhance even the power of the senses, so to say. For example, you can't see small things, so you build a microscope and another, so to say, for example, you can't see small things, okay, so you build a microscope and another world opens to you. You can't see faraway things. You build a telescope and now you're seeing the stars and planets and wow, you can't hear people far away. So you have got these phones. You know Instant information is coming. You can't be everywhere, but you want to watch a cricket match or a rugby match in another part of the world. It was a television, almost in a fraction of a second. So all this gives you knowledge and happiness together. But our science and technology, with the help of that, we are trying to increase that power of the senses. External instruments are coming to the aid of the senses and giving us more information. All right, but again we come to the same problem that no matter how powerful tools, technologies we will develop, we will never be able to know everything.
Speaker 2:
Oh, even one thing in so much detail, we will not be able to know everything, oh even one thing in so much detail, we will not be able to know.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, one topic, one topic.
Speaker 2:
I ask you to take a piece of chalk and you start looking that under a microscope telescope, not telescope electron microscope At some point you come down to atoms and electron and then you say, hey, I can't go further. There's something there that I can't know because I'm now being limited by my senses and the instrument that I have developed. So again we hit that same wall that the infinite knowledge, complete knowledge, cannot be acquired through finite means. All right, yes. So two things Is that common to everyone Limitation of the senses yes on the pursuit of knowledge.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yes, everyone just like happiness. People just want to keep knowing more and more okay so two things we are seeking for happiness.
Speaker 2:
We want infinite happiness, but the tools we are using are finite, yes, and we will never succeed. We hopefully come to that conclusion at some point. Same thing with knowledge. What else we are seeking for all the time, so much effort we are making in our everyday life?
Speaker 1:
Seeking for truth, seeking to be, to live. Yeah, to live, just to live, to exist. No one wants to die, yeah.
Speaker 2:
All right, so that is actually the most powerful thing, okay, so you get up in the morning, you go to work so that you can secure a shelter for yourself and your family, that you can secure three meals a day, that you can secure medication if diseases and things come. Think about the amount of effort that mankind puts in place so that we, as human beings, do not die.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
A lot of effort, right, a lot of effort.
Speaker 1:
you see, yeah, medical facilities, hospitals, yeah, lots. And then you hear of all these people always looking for ways to be alive forever.
Speaker 2:
So the research that goes into….
Speaker 1:
Look at the gym.
Speaker 2:
It's the gym to exercise, take all these medications, vitamins and keep yourself in and yet. And yet we know that no one lives forever. We can just prolong that health. But 80, 90, 100. By that time, even if you're alive, the body is in no good shape. You can't move around, you can't enjoy, you can't see, you can't eat very well. All those limitations of the body even makes life miserable. Some people who are in disease and suffering and very painful, just say I want to get out of this, I don't want to continue anymore. So this desire built in our DNA that I should live, I should not die, yes, it's a very drivingness in all beings, yes, and it's just amazing how much effort we put into that. For example, if I'm developing diabetes and medication, you might have a kidney transplant or a heart bypass. So all those type of things will resort to ensure that I continue, even if somebody is pretty old, you know, but they say I have lived enough long, I'm happy to go this body is old.
Speaker 1:
No one says that. No one says that Some they're very tired of the body.
Speaker 2:
Yes, Especially when it's become unmanageable. Unmanageable, yeah, and they give up, yeah. So these three things seeking for happiness, pressure, seeking for knowledge and seeking for existence, and seeking, not in limited ways infinite happiness, infinite knowledge, infinite bliss this concept, the idea of infinite existence, knowledge, bliss is the Vedanta definition of God Right Akhanda Sat Chit Ananda. Akhanda means with parts, akhanda means whole Right, infinite, limitless. Right Sat Chit Ananda. That is the closest definition, according to Vedanta, that can be given to that entity that we are. Why are we all seeking for this? Because deep inside, at the spiritual level or the consciousness level of a being, we are that infinite being whose nature is infinite existence, infinite knowledge, infinite bliss and other things like freedom, peace and everything come within that.
Speaker 1:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
So we talked about the atheist.
Speaker 1:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
Does that man who claims to be an atheist is he? Seeking for these three things.
Speaker 1:
Yes, he would be, he, yeah, he comes from the Vedanta perspective, he is not an atheist, okay, but at the moment, though he is not an atheist, okay, but at the moment, though, he's only seeking it for this lifetime in this human form.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, but he's seeking for that, but he's still seeking for it, because that is the spiritual DNA, if you want to say, of all of us. Okay, what happens is is, after many, many lifetimes and a lot of experiences, knocks and blows, this pursuit of trying to make this body live forever, pursuit of happiness, external happiness, pursuit of external knowledge, we come to the realization that it is not possible, that pursuit is not going to culminate in that fulfillment. But he cannot give that pursuit up also. But he comes to this enlightenment. You might say, if it is not out there, then it must be somewhere else. And that when he makes a U-turn and begins to seek within and you say, well, this body is going to go, but is there something beyond this body, within me? Of course there's a mind. And what's beyond the mind? There's a sense of ego and intelligence that is able to manipulate the mind, control thought process, emotions, feelings and all those things are there. So who am I really? And ultimately, when that question or the pursuit turns inwards, let me seek within, because it has not been successful outside.
Speaker 2:
That turning around, according to Vedanta, is called nivritti. Going out is pravritti. Nivritti is going inwards, and that might be called spirituality or religion. But just because the training is not there, he still requires some support for this mind to turn around, he still requires to see a reflection of himself, so to say. That's why he puts a mirror in front, so to say. Therefore, that inner idea of infinite existence, knowledge, bliss, that is what we are when we try to project it outside, look in the mirror that appears to be our ideal and that takes the form of what we might say this particular god or that particular god. So, all the wonderful ideals, things that we are seeking for infinite existence, knowledge, bliss, peace, purity, beauty, goodness you put, take them all together, multiply by infinity, put in a basket, give it some form, and that would be our conception of the ideal state of being. That would be your God.
Speaker 2:
Whichever being in your tradition, culture represents that you will be attracted to, that you will be, you'll worship that because it reflects what you are inside, right, okay, and so Vedanta or Hinduism gives you all that variety of options. Okay, you choose whichever is within you, and that's what you will proceed In the beginning. You might create a shrine and you put a photograph of some being that represents that, or a statue. But remember, that's only a projection of your ideal. Okay, ultimately, the one you're seeking for is within you, but they're all aids, supports in the early spiritual journey and when you outgrow them you can outgrow them as you progress then you'll not need them. They accept their purpose, but they will be useful for others, ok, and you can ultimately come deep within yourself and find the being that we have been seeking for life after life, going in the mountain caves and meditating in hills and valleys, in everywhere, in books and churches, in temples, everywhere. That is the being within me, in you, in books and churches, in temples, everywhere. That is the being within me, in you, in everyone. That is the realization of, or the goal of, vedanta.
Speaker 2:
Vedanta means that spiritual knowledge that I am the divine being that I am seeking for. In the beginning I was thinking God is some being out there, okay, extra cosmic being. As we grow spiritually, we come to the conclusion oh, he's not out there, he's within us. And then is that the highest realization that I am the divine being? No, there's a higher stage being there Not only in me. He's present in anyone and everyone. That means what appears to us as the world of names and forms, as people, plants, animals. These are masks that the divine wears, so to say, but underlying deep within is that universal consciousness, and that consciousness is the common substratum of the whole universe. It's the one ocean that manifests itself as so many waves. Waves appear and disappear, the ocean remains, but the water of the ocean and the water and the wave are of the same substance. So if the wave looks within and says what am I made of? I'm made of water, and then he's able to understand the underlying connection. Where did I come from? Out of the ocean. And once that ocean idea comes in, then he sees I'm connected to everyone and anyone. That these are the realizations of Vedanta, according to our Hindu scriptures.
Speaker 2:
So from that point of view, if you put religion in this way that you don't have to really go to a temple in church if you want to go, that's fine. But if you believe that there is that infinite being within you that's pure, that's perfect, ever free, that's never bound, that's perfect, ever free, that's never bound, that's omniscient, omnipotent, peaceful, blissful and all those things, that is my true nature. I don't think anyone says, hey, don't tell me that, I don't want to hear that, I don't want to believe that Everyone says tell me more about it. You know, we are not talking about some extra cosmic being at whose feet we have to kneel down and pray Okay, In fear and all that. It's your own higher self that we are seeking for, and that being is also present in everyone. So true religion, according to Vedanta, would be to acknowledge that divine presence in all beings. Treat everyone with respect, kindness, compassion and all those type of things. If somebody does this, he is more spiritual to somebody who simply goes to the church and temple and does all those rituals and ceremonies, but the behavior and the conduct in everyday life is opposite. So in that sense, vedanta is very universal.
Speaker 2:
In this we have not talked about any particular book, any prophet, any religion or something. It really is talking about the divine in every being, and that's why it has got this wonderful universal appeal. It's rational. Not only that, it's logical and it is something very deeply personal to me, you know, and it's very sublime and uplifting. It says we are all divine beings. The challenge, then, is how do we manifest that divinity within ourselves? Okay, so the same current is flowing through, but all the but some are low voltage and some are high voltage. So coming back to the question now, yeah, okay, are we really atheists?
Speaker 1:
from this definition, I've understood well so what we could do is why don't we answer this in the next episode?
Speaker 2:
Why don't we leave that open? Well, but I think we have answered the question after this discussion that, really, if all of us are pursuing infinite existence, knowledge and bliss, and if that is the definition of God, that infinite being, that infinite knowledge within me, infinite power within me, that's what I'm seeking for. Maybe in ignorance, I'm seeking it outside, but I'm still seeking for the same thing. So, from that perspective, no one is really an atheist. The question is okay, suppose we like this idea that there's infinite wonderful being inside me and everyone. How do I practice that form of spirituality? Does it mean that I have to again go to a church or temple and all those things and believe in a particular being? Or I can have a totally different approach to my own personal spirituality that's based on my own true nature. Maybe we can discuss that in the next episode.
Speaker 1:
Okay, we can do that. Thank you, Samanji. Thank you for that profound knowledge and we'll continue our discussions in the next episode. Thank you, Sunil.
