Ritam - Being in Balance. A Podcast on Wellbeing
32.Wellbeing - Spiritual but not religious
Ever wondered how acts of kindness, compassion, and charity can pave your spiritual journey? Join us in an enlightening conversation with Swami Tadananda from the Ramakrishna Vedanta Centre of Auckland, where we explore how you can manifest the divine within, even if you consider yourself "spiritual but not religious." We discuss the growing disconnection from religious institutions and how the essence of Vedanta resonates with universal human values. Discover how living a life of honesty, compassion, and selfless service can lead to genuine spiritual progress, transcending traditional religious frameworks.
In our discussion, we dive into the teachings of Swami Vivekananda and the Ramakrishna mission, focusing on spiritual growth through selflessness and expanding our circle of care to all humanity. Get inspired by the synthesis of various spiritual paths—work, worship, psychic control, and philosophy—as means to achieve spiritual freedom. Swami Tadananda also sheds light on the importance of rituals and ceremonies, encouraging us to seek the deeper philosophies behind these practices. Tune in for a thought-provoking episode that promises to enrich your spiritual journey, regardless of your religious affiliations.
www.vedanta.nz
Ever wondered how acts of kindness, compassion, and charity can pave your spiritual journey? Join us in an enlightening conversation with Swami Tadananda from the Ramakrishna Vedanta Centre of Auckland, where we explore how you can manifest the divine within, even if you consider yourself "spiritual but not religious." We discuss the growing disconnection from religious institutions and how the essence of Vedanta resonates with universal human values. Discover how living a life of honesty, compassion, and selfless service can lead to genuine spiritual progress, transcending traditional religious frameworks.
In our discussion, we dive into the teachings of Swami Vivekananda and the Ramakrishna mission, focusing on spiritual growth through selflessness and expanding our circle of care to all humanity. Get inspired by the synthesis of various spiritual paths—work, worship, psychic control, and philosophy—as means to achieve spiritual freedom. Swami Tadananda also sheds light on the importance of rituals and ceremonies, encouraging us to seek the deeper philosophies behind these practices. Tune in for a thought-provoking episode that promises to enrich your spiritual journey, regardless of your religious affiliations.
www.vedanta.nz
Namaste everyone. I am Sunil, with Swami Tadananda from the Ramakrishna Vedanta Centre of Auckland, new Zealand. Here again for another episode of Rhythm. How are you, swamiji? I'm very good, sunil. How are you? I'm good, I'm good, thank you. In the last episode, we talked about atheism and we concluded at the end that even atheists are seeking the same truth, that we all are pursuing the same truth on happiness, knowledge and existence. So, swamiji, how do we start today's episode? What's the next?
Speaker 2:Well, let's put ourselves in the position of a person out there who is not a traditionally religious person, who doesn't go to the temple and church, doesn't believe in so many gods and goddesses, who doesn't subscribe to these doctrines and dogmas, but is a good guy.
Speaker 1:There's always lots of friends that want to do the good in the world through charity or give their time for community work and so on, but they don't want to go to temples and churches. Right, they just want to do good, but not be affiliated, maybe, to an organization, a religious organization, but they're looking to do good. Are these people spiritual Swamiji?
Speaker 2:So you come across many people who say I'm not religious but I'm spiritual. Yeah, and when you ask a little bit more, then say, look, you know, I believe in kindness and compassion, little bit more than say, look, you know, I believe in kindness and compassion, in doing good to the world, in charity, in living a good, honest life, not cheating people, not harming anyone out there, and if I can do that there, they have peace of mind and they don't require the other part of just turning up and being a member of an organization or the traditional church temple and all that. That's not necessary for them and they're fine, it's fine with them, it's fine for them also, and they would classify themselves as atheists possibly whatever you want, because the definition subscribing to a faith is what you are calling to be atheism.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter. These are only some labels, constructs that are there. The important thing from Vedanta is the purpose of life is to manifest the divine within us more and more, and more If one going to the traditional form of prayer and meditation and church, and more If one going to the traditional form of prayer and meditation and church and temple. If they require those supports to grow spiritually, good for them. For others who don't feel inclined or don't have the temperament but can take up other forms in the life through the work and the profession, and they are also growing spiritually, that means they are manifesting more and more of that spiritual power that's within this. They're also making spiritual progress and Vedanta really is about that, practical Vedanta. So let us say, take the case of a western. Such person, busy with work, doesn't have time for this, traditional religious ceremonies, festivals, rituals, has not much interest in this, doctrines and dogmas, but, like we discussed, he believes in himself, he believes in goodness and he says that's enough for me, let me pursue that path. Is that ok? And we say it's perfectly ok. Actually that's even better because he's applying those same universal teachings of Vedanta. It's better than a man who claims to be religious. He's only a good man when he's in the temple and church, but outside he does all nonsense.
Speaker 2:Many are there in that category. They're the ones who misrepresent religion. Yes, okay, and that sort of hurts the sentiments and the faith of many other people. Many organizations are like that. You know where they have moved away from that spiritual component and it has become more about the organization, it's more about themselves, it's more about power, it's more about money, it's more about influence, and sometimes their behavior and conduct does not tally up with these teachings and therefore it naturally hurts the sentiments of all those people and they would not want to associate with such an institution, and they should not, and there's nothing wrong with that, because they don't really represent that and there are such institutions. We don't have to give any names out there. So these are some of the factors where you know it has driven many people away from the traditional religions.
Speaker 2:Okay, and we have to acknowledge that. Like we said, you know, in every five years, if the percentage of people who are moving away from the traditional religion is growing at almost like one percent per year. Then we'll expect in maybe another 15-20 years that will be like 60-70 percent and those organizations, institutions who do not adjust, adapt and meet the needs of the people in the society will also struggle and die out. Yes, okay, but we talked about what is true. Spirituality is okay. Let's look at that part how a person who is in this 50 percent and doesn't have all that faith in the traditional religion can he also? Is there a path of spirituality for them? Yes, I think that let's have that conversation.
Speaker 2:That's a good that's a good one, okay. So let's pick up a few salient points. One we all are potentially divine. Do we believe in that? Potentially, there's some inner goodness in me. I want to manifest that, whether it's through kindness, compassion, charity, all there, but something is trying to seek expression of that. I feel deeply. It's good to be good. I should not do harm to somebody. Let me be a source of peace. And you know, peace and kindness and compassion, gratitude and all those things. I think if one has that, that's a very good start, okay.
Speaker 2:But what is the rationale behind it, so that these people that you talk to, who feel like that and want to do that, of course, can they explain this to themselves in a rational way? Is there a Vedantic explanation behind that feeling that impels them in this path? Of course, the Vedanta is totally based on that. Let's use that analogy of that ocean and wave and say the spiritual dimension behind all of us is that ocean, one without a second. On the surface of that ocean are all this, so many waves, which are so many smaller representations of them. They come, they stay, they go. They're not permanent. That's what we all individuals are. But behind the individuality is the real individuality. Individual, when we say, is like indivisible. We as individuals are not individuals. The reality inside us is the real individuality, the indivisible ocean of consciousness. That's what we all are, and that urge to go inwards, towards the ocean is what is called spirituality, and it culminates in where we hit that oneness advaita, one without a second, that one universal being. In that experience I find that I'm in all beings and all beings are in me. That's the culmination of spirituality, according to Vedanta that feeling of that expansion where the wave subsides and merges in the ocean and discovers that I am a being that is limitless, pure, perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, immortal. And then he comes back and looks at the world and he says the whole world is in me, okay, and I'm in every being. I'm related to everyone and everyone. I'm not identified with only one wave anymore. You see, that tremendous expansion is what happens in a spiritual realization. That is what produces that Buddha, okay, and that compassion of Buddha when he feels for anything and every being, you know, and even an animal comes from that not understanding that experience of that oneness. So spirituality is really that.
Speaker 2:The pursuit of spirituality would be an effort to integrate ourselves the way with the ocean, okay, and anything that takes us in that direction promotes our spiritual progress. So in nature you'll find these two forces that they're operating. In physics we talk about the forces, the centripetal force and the centrifugal force. Okay, one takes you towards the center, the other one takes you away. In mathematics you say differentiation and integration. In spirituality we call nivritti and pravritti. You know, morally, moral and immoral type of thing. So that balance is there.
Speaker 2:In some people the outward force is playing more and you will see they are disruptive, divisive. You know, in them there's more of this. Differential forces are there Anger, hatred, jealousy, greed, divisiveness, you know, eye and mind type of thing. The other one, those who are moving inwards with the help of the centripetal force, the inward force towards the oneness, with the help of the centripetal force, the inward force towards the oneness, towards the center. They are, it's like, they are inclusive, they are caring and sharing, they are loving. You know there's kindness and compassion. So all of these things, these emotions and the drive that is urging them towards that oneness, is what we call really spirituality. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:And if a friend says hey, look, I believe in truthfulness and believe in doing charity, I believe in being kind. I'm sacrificing a little bit of my comforts, for I feel for the others. I'm not just happy with my own happiness, but I've somehow deep inside, whether I know or not, feel a connection with my neighbor, with my countrymen, that urges me to sacrifice a little bit of my personal wealth and whatever I have to alleviate somebody's suffering. I don't understand what it is, but I feel that deep inside me, that is that force, that call coming from inside, saying move towards that oneness. Actually is that oneness trying to express itself in these ways. So a person in whom that urge is there, which, which, which tries to express himself in this, his behavior, in his conduct, in his actions, and he calls that I want to be kind to others, I want to bring some relief to others suffering. I feel deep in my heart at others suffering. I should not be a cause of harming anyone, you know, hurting anyone, ahimsa, and all those type of things. I have to be truthful because deep inside the truth is that oneness and I want to feel that when I conduct such an activity I feel good about myself. You know, I went out and sacrificed, cooked some food and gave to some hungry neighbor or somebody. Okay, when I come back I feel good about myself.
Speaker 2:What has happened? That act has taken us one step inwards towards that oneness, that infinite existence, knowledge, bliss that we talked about in its ultimate is in that oneness. So anything that takes us in that direction is spiritually good for us. Yes, but how do I make that progress is to not just simply believe in that and say, hey, there's oneness, we are all one, one ocean behind the many type of thing. No, our actions must also reflect what we deeply believe in and feel that would be the, this vedantic spirituality.
Speaker 2:But he's, he's just not sort of going by, feeling he's understanding the whole thing, also rationally understands that if I can, in this journey of life, make that progress so that I integrate myself deeper and deeper and realize that infinite being in myself that is there, that would be so wonderful. And I'm going to use all these activities, duties, responsibilities and opportunities that come in my everyday life to consciously move in that direction. So he's not just doing charity for the sake of charity or for some name or fame or just feel good factor. No, he says this is spiritually good to me, I might have relieved some suffering for somebody else. That person might appreciate and say thank. You might not say thank you, that doesn't matter, I'm not. That is not the reward that I'm looking for.
Speaker 2:The reward that's driving me is that I should grow, evolve, manifest that divinity within. And what is the divinity? More and more of that oneness, more and more of that underlying oneness that's connecting me with anyone and everyone, and its culmination is that ultimate where one feels the whole world is mine and I'm everywhere, in everyone type of thing. So now we have not reused any terminology, the traditional terminology. We're not saying believe. In this book we say believe in yourself, believe in that deeper self, the spiritual dimension. Understand that at that level we are connected with the whole universe. And in our everyday life we make a conscious effort, and in our everyday life we make a conscious effort to move in a deliberate way in that direction. Make sure that you don't get caught by the centrifugal force, but the centripetal force, the inward, force.
Speaker 1:What are some examples of things that we can do that will move us in inwards?
Speaker 2:so you might say, okay, and somebody asked me the other day what is the definition of morality? What is moral and what is immoral, what is good and what is not good, what is spiritual and what is non-spiritual? Is there a yardstick by which, when I'm taking a decision whether I should do this and I should not do this, can I apply something on the spot and say this is good for me, I'll do this. So here's the definition Anything that takes you towards that, anything that integrates you deeper with the totality, that is good, that's moral, that's righteous. Do that and you'll find that all spiritual teachings in the practical form, when they say non-violence, kindness, compassion, charity, service, are all basically trying to guide you, the person in the direction and he says do this. These are do's. The don'ts are all those things that take us away. Okay.
Speaker 1:Sometimes there's a dilemma, though, sonuji when you go, it feels that the decision is X and it will do good, but it might be good to just me and bad to others. And it might, you know, like there's decisions where, selfishly, it's good for you or good for your family, but not for the wider good, the community good or public good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's two forces. Unselfishness is the one that will integrate you. Selfishness will alienate you, right, okay, so selfishness is the way we're saying I'm just interested in myself, or the few relative waves that are around me. The rest I'm not interested in them. You see? And will that allow him to integrate with the totality? No, he creates the division where he has excluded the others, so he'll never reach the totality. That's why there's a three word definition of God given by Swami Vivekananda Unselfishness is.
Speaker 2:God, okay, it's wonderful. The more unselfish we are, the closer we are to the divine or God being that we talk about, who's within us, our true higher self. So to say so that yardstick becomes good and say, okay, is this a selfish decision? And if it is, then you say this is not going to integrate me. But we go from a lower truth to a higher truth. Okay, we start with maybe somebody is extremely selfish with him and her, okay. But then you know they, they get married, they have a family and this and that, so they're forced to sacrifice your time, effort and all those things with at least your family members. Then that extends out to your relatives. Okay, I have to do this because so it forces you to sacrifice, become a bit more unselfish. Then what about the neighbors and the people around? You know, so the more we expand, okay, the more we are growing, the more unselfish we are becoming that's a yardstick the more spiritually we are growing. And ultimately, when the heart has expanded to an extent that you feel that everyone is in mind, not just this small family that's mine, you know, I feel equally for everyone. That is the heart of this wonderful realized souls and it's from that position, they reach out and try to serve mankind.
Speaker 2:Where they sacrifice their own physical comforts and personal, everything goes away. Because that's where the wave is trying to say I'm going to sacrifice myself because I want to become the ocean. You can't. The thing is, you cannot remain the wave and be the ocean. You have to make that transition. The importance, your focus, the location has to shift. You know my self-identity, what do I want to be? So, so spirituality in that sense is discovering or regaining that identification with that spiritual dimension, dimension in which the whole universe is my own, that oneness. So what would that be in everyday practice? You know, it's good to have all this philosophy and understanding, okay, but how do we apply them?
Speaker 2:And so, in the Ramakrishna mission, those who are familiar with the logo of the Ramakrishna mission designed, who are familiar with the logo of the Ramakrishna mission designed by Swami Vivekananda, represents that wonderful synthesis, synthesis of these various paths that are there. What are the basis of these paths? Paths for spirituality, spiritual growth, manifestation of the divine. How can I manifest the divine? That's the goal. Each manifestation of the divine, how can I manifest the divine? Okay, that's the goal. Okay, each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest the divinity. Swami Vivekananda says the way to do is by controlling nature, external and internal. He says do this by work or worship, or psychic control or philosophy, by one or more or all of these, and be free. This is the whole of religion. Then he adds another line doctrines, dogmas, rituals, ceremonies, temples, churches and all those things are secondary details.
Speaker 1:It's a very different thing.
Speaker 2:It's a different see. The essence has got nothing. So what happens is, over time, the secondary details hide the primary, yes, and the institution and the organization, yeah, they take the front stage. All these things have become more important where the spiritual growth of the seeker who turns up, that is not the most important thing for the people in there, neither for the people who are organizing or those who are even going. So when this happens, then some restoration has to happen and that's where great spiritual teachers come and say hey, remove all the husk, unnecessary things that accumulate over time, and give us the pure principles again and say take this.
Speaker 2:So I talked about the logo of Sri Ramakrishna. Yes, ramakrishna mission. In there there's a swan in the center. A swan represents that self of man, the supreme being. Why is it? It's called hamsa, okay, so a swan is a bird. If you give some milk, it will be able to consume the milk, part of it and leave the water behind, right, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:So the world is a mixture. Deep inside is a spiritual being, outside it is names and forms and a person who has been able to dive deep within and been able to separate their spiritual essence from the body and the mind and the senses and all those individuality, ego and everything is called a Paramahamsa. Okay, so that's the goal of everyone. Spirituality is about realizing that. How to do that? Well, in this mechanism of a human being, we have got some key faculties built in there. We have got some key faculties built in there. We have got organs of action, karmendriyas, hands, feet. Where we are engaged in activity, everyone is doing something. Then there is a component inside us that is the intelligence, the buddhi, the power of discrimination, the reasoning that differentiates a human being from so many other life forms. That's why, because we can do more of discrimination, the reasoning, you know, that differentiates a human being from so many other life forms. You know, that's why, because we can do more of that, the human being rules this planet, type of thing. Okay, so how do we use that capacity, the rational, the logical capacity to further our spiritual? We have that faculty. Of which way we use it's up to us, but that's there. And the third one is this feeling, emotions, you know, okay, that's very powerful force operating in all of us that ties us to the world, drives us to and, you know, gets to pursue things that we love or want, type of thing, but it it's a powerful driving force, okay, okay, so that's in everyone also Emotions, emotions, feelings Okay, emotions, the rational part of it and the activity part of it.
Speaker 2:So we can utilize these three. Normally we utilize them in pursuit of things outside. So I get up and go work wanting this happiness, knowledge and things outside. Okay, action for happiness outside. We realize it's not there at some point. Okay, can we use this action to take us inwards? Okay, if we can do that, then karma action can become karma yoga. Yoga means to join, join the individual mind to the universal self within. So action, when it is not properly utilized, can take us outside, miserable when failure comes, this and that eventually whatever we get also is lost. But if we say, since I have to do work, but I will do it with detachment, without any expectation, I should not be tied to the results of the action. My purpose of action is to integrate myself inwards. So work becomes a means to spiritual development. It's called Karma Yoga.
Speaker 2:Emotions are very powerful. We say we love people, animals, country, party, somehow we get entangled and resonate and then that also influences us. If you love somebody, if that person is happy, you are happy. If they're not happy, then you're also miserable. Somehow we become tied to that. You know disconnect, so emotions, when it's given out to the outside world, binds us. Okay, can we turn that emotion inwards, to that source of all that powerful force? That would be devotion. Emotion directed towards the divine is devotion. That is called Bhakti Yoga.
Speaker 2:So, these are forces operating inside. What we are trying to do is use them for spiritual purpose. And the third one is the power of discrimination, by which we judge, decide what is right and wrong, good and bad, real and unreal, permanent and okay, about, and with that we we succeed in various activities, design in external world, all the wonderful things. But that same power of discrimination can be utilized to discriminate between the permanent and the impermanent, the infinite and the finite. And if the mind is able to say, everything in this world is transitory, nothing is going to last out there. You know, what I'm seeking for is insight. When we make that discriminatory decision, whether a pursuit should be for something outside or inside, that power that's within us all can be utilized to promote that inward journey that is called Jnana Yoga path of knowledge. The first was path of action. Everyone is doing action, but a yogi, a person, a spiritual person, will learn the art of, of, of working but not getting caught by the work, not being attached to it. He learns the art of detachment. Okay, that is something we are not taught and that's why we suffer. Things are not bad in themselves. It's our attachment to things that are the cause of problems. Okay, we surrender our freedom by getting caught by those things and then they make us stand up and sit down, dance to their music. We blame them, but really it's our attachment to things. Suppose we could go out and work with total detachment. That would be so liberating and free. Okay, karma yoga teaches that technique. Okay, bhakti Yoga is about redirecting that emotional energy inwards, in a spiritual direction, rather than forfeiting or giving it out to something out there, and we lose our freedom because that makes me dance to its music, so to say. Okay. And then Jnana Yoga, the power of reasoning in discrimination, where I have that side, sharp, incisive, discriminating sense, where, before I take up any work, I ask that question is this going to promote my spiritual growth and development? Okay, and if it's not there, and then I stop, rather than going down the line and then getting knocked around a little bit and suffering by that time. So these are the three yogas, and the fourth is Dhyana Yoga, the path of meditation, which is the royal path, you know, where you put all this aside and you direct that energy and the mind to the source of one's own consciousness within. What is there? Go beyond the body of layer of the body, go beyond the mind itself, go beyond the ego and try to integrate yourself with that source of consciousness, that M-ness that is in me. Okay, that would be your path of meditation. It's like bringing all the rays of light on that central focus point there mental energy.
Speaker 2:So when Swami Vivekananda says these are the faculties in everyone, okay, and so in that monogram of the Ramakrishna Mission, you will see that the rising sun is a symbol of that knowledge. When sun rises, all the darkness is dispelled. When the power of discrimination rises, all ignorance is dispelled. Knowledge comes and ignorance is dispelled. Then the wavy waters are a symbol of the action. The waves are incessantly moving. So always we are active, active, physically active, mentally. Thought is an action also. How do we use that for self-integration? So the water is representative of the Karma Yoga.
Speaker 2:The lotus is symbolic of bhakti yoga, devotion. Something wonderful is present inside of us, but the lotus pertains to bloom, and the encircling serpent represents the kundalini, the awakening of that spiritual consciousness within us. And so he says look, all these faculties are within us. When we do not says, look, all these faculties are within us. When we do not know, we just use this for in pursuit of external happiness, knowledge and all those things. But we can re-engineer these faculties that are within us as tools to go within and discover, remove that experience, that divine within us. So this is what would be the sort of the philosophy behind it.
Speaker 2:Out, in the everyday life, when we go out and engage with people, you know duties and responsibilities customers, patients, students. We try to put these principles into practice consciously and you'll find so many opportunities are there and a person who is trying is alert, vigilant and saying every opportunity I will try to see if I can apply this philosophy, this perspective, and grow. Then that office becomes a place of worship. The doctor's surgery becomes a place of worship. The shop, business place also becomes a place of worship because in every such place you are consciously making an attempt to manifest the divine within you. So religion is about that and whether you go to a church and temple and whether that helps you in that spiritual process and all those things. If it helps For many people, they're designed for that.
Speaker 2:It's just sometimes people don't understand. They see the external forms and they don't understand the rational and the philosophy behind it because it's not explained or they never ask the question. So they deprive themselves of that, of the benefit that comes. You know they throw the baby with the water type thing, but it's good to ask the question. You know Answers are there. But if you don't ask, who will tell you? And you'll find those. Some of those rich so-called rituals and ceremonies and restaurant are very, very powerful. Through them, thousands of people have my tremendous amount of progress. Why would you, you know, lose that opportunity to make the benefit? But with knowledge Ignorantly?
Speaker 1:if you follow, then it doesn't have much benefit, okay. Right, swamiji, that was quite good. Thank you, yes, sunil.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's pursue our discussions. What would be the next topic? Think of something that will take us to the continue these discussions a little further. Sure, if our listeners have some questions or subjects they would like us to discuss, they can share with us. Thank you,