Ritam - Being in Balance. A Podcast on Wellbeing
Mental wellbeing is an escalating global challenge having serious impact on the quality of life, productivity in workplace etc. Our approach to wellbeing fundamentally depends on our perspective of ourselves. Are we just human beings, not much different from animals or something more? Over thousands of years the Vedic spiritual seekers dived deep within themselves to explore the inner space and they repeatedly verified that we all, without exception, are in essence really spiritual beings having human experiences. Their discoveries form Vedanta philosophy - the 'science of human excellences" - which explain in detail and with much clarity how we have multidimensional physical, mental, emotional and ethical layers of personality covering the fundamental Pure and eternal spiritual being. Along with this, the Vedic seekers developed systematic Yoga techniques to purify our minds and "dis-cover" our true Self.
The Vedantic conception of ourselves and Yogic mind-management techniques offer an alternative approach to address the mental wellbeing challenges. Ramakrishna Vedanta Centre, Auckland has taken up a project to make available these Vedanta-Yoga teachings to empower individuals with the knowledge and skill-sets to better manage their minds, emotions, values etc. to live meaningful, peaceful and productive lives.
Ritam is the Vedic principle responsible for maintaining order, harmony and rhythm both in the macrocosm and the microcosm. Stress, tension, dis-ease etc arise when we lose this balance at different levels of our being and around us. We have limited capacity to influence change outside us but we can definitely integrate our mind to our inner Self to gain greater poise, balance and rhythm in life. Meditation is the art of turning the mind inwards and anchoring it to our eternal, omniscient, blissful and pure Self. The more we are integrated with our inner Self, the greater will be the influence we can cast around us. This is the spiritual way to freedom from the slavery to the eternal world and internal body, senses and mind.
Ritam - Being in Balance is our series of conversations with Swami Tadananda wherein we explore the Vedanta-Yoga teachings and practices to promote our wellbeing.
Ritam - Being in Balance. A Podcast on Wellbeing
41.Wellbeing - The Illusion of Free Will and Karma Yoga
What if true freedom lies not in controlling our actions, but in relinquishing the illusion of control altogether? Swamiji guides us through a profound exploration of karma, challenging our preconceived notions by contrasting the traditional understanding with the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita. Through Arjuna's journey, we unravel the complexities of free will, spiritual ignorance, and enlightenment, inviting listeners to see beyond the veil of ego to the unifying force that orchestrates our lives.
In a deeper dive into the realms of willpower, knowledge, and action, we turn to the wisdom of the Patanjali Yoga Sutras and the Bhagavad Gita. Unpack the transformative power of Ichcha Shakti, Jnana Shakti, and Kriya Shakti, and learn how to be a true instrument of the divine. With insights from the teachings of Sri Krishna and Sri Ramakrishna, we underscore the significance of detachment from outcomes and the liberating essence of Karma Yoga. By embracing these teachings, we can navigate life's fluctuations with a serene detachment, realizing that while the illusion of free will persists, a greater energy guides our steps towards inner peace.
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Namaste Latham listeners and Namaste Swamiji, how are you?
Speaker 2:Namaste Sunil, I'm good, thank you. How are you?
Speaker 1:Good, good, good to see you again.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1:Swamiji, this week I was hoping we could talk about a question we've had from one of the listeners and this is on karma, but different perspectives on the karma and possibly this discussion would be on on trying to get a better understanding so that different perspectives, these two perspectives, can be reconciled. So I'll ask you the question, the questions on karma, and the first perspective that we've talked about over many episodes is that karma has actions and the actions have a result, which comes to the person that created the action in the first place. So you know we've talked about there's a karma, there's a record being created or debits and credits, and in the end, if the debit or credit is the balance, it has to be worked out in your next life and the cycle of birth and so on. That comes across. That's the first perspective, which is on karma and the actions that have a result and they're accumulated.
Speaker 1:The second perspective is and this is again we've discussed this, but this comes from Bhagavad Gita, right? So you've gone to Bhagavad Gita a few times where you say Sri Krishna has told us that we are merely instruments and that we are not the doers. We're just the instruments and the doer is the supreme one, the God or a higher being that's doing all the doing and we're just merely puppets, right? So that's another view on karma, right? So these two perspectives seem to be at odds with each other and therefore I thought today's discussion we could focus on these two different perspectives and look at how we can actually reconcile this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a question that is asked in different ways, sunil, and sometimes the question is in the form of do we have free will? Okay, really, do we have free will? Apparently, we all feel that we have a free will. That you know. You're talking now and I'm talking the question what you'll say next moment. You think you're choosing, but and that's the perception of most people instruments or puppets in the hands of some other being or some other power that works through us. So how to reconcile them? Okay? So let's start the first view that every action has a reaction, every work has a result, you know, and good brings good and bad brings suffering to us. And good brings good and bad brings suffering to us.
Speaker 2:That particular perception is as a result of what we call spiritual ignorance. Spiritual ignorance about that higher entity that sits above us. So most of us have our self-identity as an I-sense, an ego, an individuality, a personality that has got a mind and emotion, mental space where emotions, ideas, thoughts, knowledge, views, perspective, perceptions, all those things are there. And then so you say I am so-and-so and you identified yourself with the mind mind, a doctor, I'm a teacher, I'm an engineer, something like that. And then it goes down to a next, grosser level where it becomes identified with the body. And you said I'm black, brown, white, male, female, any gender capsule of body and mind with its own individual essence, thinking that it is an independent entity on its own is what we experience most. Most of us experience in the light of the highest realization, they said. They will say now that you are holding on to that, but it is not the enlightened understanding. Actually, you are spiritually ignorant about it. Something else you are much more than that. And so they bring another dimension and said we are essentially a spiritual being, having a human experience. That means there's something that sits above the ego also, and and when it is seen from that higher perspective, then you get that second, the higher framework. If you, then you get the second perspective that, oh, the ego and the body, mind is really an instrument in the, in the hands of that higher power, that we are all different waves, and if we are not aware of the ocean, then that is our ignorance. But really the wave cannot exist independent of the ocean. Actually, it has come out of the ocean, it's made of the same substance. Water is the ocean and it will eventually go back into the ocean. The ocean can exist without the waves, but not vice versa. And it is that ocean that is the underlying common factor that joins everything, the unity behind all the diversity. So just to look at the surface of the ocean and say there are also many waves and I'm not aware of the ocean, is what is called spiritual ignorance. So to say, we are independent, separate beings, and where do we come from? We do not know where we go, we do not know why we are here. We do not know, but somehow we have a sense of individuality, personality. We go around doing our activities, duties, responsibilities, without that awareness of that underlying unity.
Speaker 2:So when Arjuna is in the battlefield that's a good example then he suffers from this illusion where he is the great doer, he is the great warrior, he's desirous of fighting, and how well he fights will determine the outcome of the war. And so, and therefore, if he kills many people, then sin will come to him and so much harm will come to others. And all that. And if he in that way, when he thinks, then suddenly he doesn't see the rationale behind doing something so heinous which will cause so much suffering to him. So he suffered under that illusion that he is the doer and that all these beings are human beings and they'll be killed and he'll be responsible for that.
Speaker 2:So immediately, in Chapter 2, sri Krishna brings him, teaches to him, introduces to him the concept of the higher framework, about the spiritual dimension of us, the one universal being who runs, who is the substratum of all beings, which itself is eternal, it is immortal, which does not die, and all those qualities of the atman is in truth. That totally transforms the whole picture. And then sri krishna is saying go and fight the battle, don't run away from it, but first you must be established in this wisdom of the atman nature, the spiritual nature. It's called sthita prajna. Be, let your knowledge or your wisdom be established, be steady in this knowledge. Only then you can go and discharge this duty. So, so in.
Speaker 2:So, in so long we are ignorant about that spiritual dimension, we will have a sense of doership and enjoyership. It's called karatritu abhimana, I am the doer, bhoktrittu abhimana, I am the enjoyer. Both of them come not out of knowledge but out of ignorance, and the doership ties itself. So when I say I am the doer, then I tie myself to the result of the work, also karma phala. So if I say I am the doer and some good thing comes, then I feel take the credit and enjoy the success of it. And if the desired result is not achieved, then I think I failed and I take the blame of it or feel bad about it. But really, and therefore that's the state of most people, to languish in this, to in ignorance and carry on work. We'll just continue that cycle. Because in ignorance, if you identify with the result of work, then the result will come to us.
Speaker 2:But Sri Krishna says you can still be engaged in work, do all the duty and not let the result bind you. And what is the method? Bring in that lighter Vedantic knowledge that we are only an instrument in the hands of the Divine. And Sri Krishna says Ahamkara vimudatma, karta aham iti manyate. A deluded person, vimudha atma, has got this ahamkara, that egotistic feeling, that karta aham, I am the doer, iti manyate. He thinks in this way. So I am the doer. That is the cause of all problems. And if one continues in that, then in the pendulum will swing and you will have good times and then you'll have difficult times also and you'll get whacked around this way and that way. But there's a more advanced or intelligent way of working, a spiritual way of working, where we bring in that perspective of the ocean, behind the wave, the Supreme being as the source of the power that flows through us, in which we are an instrument, nimitta matram being only an instrument. Bhava-ya sajya. Sri Krishna tells Sarjuna Okay, so what does that look like? How?
Speaker 1:do I understand? Just trying to understand what you said so far, the higher level of understanding is the Bhagavad Gita level, which is saying that we are the instrument, not the doer. There's no I, but the understanding. The other understanding of karma is still a one step up level understanding right, then having no understanding. So there's levels of understanding, so there is, is there levels of understanding? So you know, if we say the Bhagavad Gita level is the top, most level, then the karma is some level of understanding, but it's not the highest level because you know the karma. Some people don't even understand karma right, so they just go about the many way of doing things. But others would understand karma, they would go right, well, I shouldn't do anything bad, because if I do anything bad, bad will come. So that's one level up than the other person. And then the final or final could be other stages, I'm not sure. But the ultimate understanding is that I'm not the doer, I'm only an instrument. Would you say that that's the right way of looking at it so far?
Speaker 2:Yes, the degrees of understanding, you know, as the mind becomes subtler, I will be able to grasp those truths, the multiple dimensions of things. It's like ice has got another form called water and it can have another form called water vapor, which is now invisible, but I know it's in the atmosphere, it's there, and it can again be even finer than that in terms of oxygen and hydrogen in there. You know, so same thing can have many, many subtleties, so to say yeah the grosser one is an animal is working.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have a sense of really that ego, you know. He just instinctively eats and drinks and sleeps and there's no sense of maybe right and wrong and this and that maybe. You know, I do not know, it's not so developed in there. But a human being has got this, the buddhi, the intellect power of discrimination, where he says, oh, this is right, this is wrong, and all that. But he has a sense of strong sense of agency.
Speaker 2:They say that when one is born in an animal form, that is mostly to work out karma. They don't manufacture, fabricate new karma because the doership is not really there. It is only when the doership comes that we tie ourselves to the result of the karma. It's not that the result will not come, okay, result will be there. But do you appropriate to yourself the agency and say the result is mine? That happens. That will happen only when we are ignorant to assume the doership but a more enlightened understanding, which is what Bhagavad Gita is trying to teach to us.
Speaker 2:Sri Krishna is trying to teach humanity through this battlefield and Arjuna as just the means for us, there's a more smart, intelligent, enlightened way of doing work. And then when we study the Bhagavad Gita, we bring that next dimension in us, around us and behind the whole everything that we are only little waves and ultimately they all exist. All these names and forms, that people appear and disappear, really come out of that infinite consciousness, which is this universal being, and actually it is the power of the ocean that is flowing through all these layers and manifests as human action. That's why Sri Ramakrishna says God acts through the will of man. Okay, but man does not know that he's working there. So he appropriates that will to himself and he says I have free will. But really that free will is a misnomer. That free will belongs at that higher spiritual level, but when we drag it down to the body, mind, level, then it is not really a free will.
Speaker 2:So when we reflect on ourselves, how we are constituted, and we go through this framework that we have been talking right from the beginning of this podcast series, that we've got this physical body, we've got the mental body and we have got this causal on the intellect body of intelligence, and there is something beyond there that bodyless, so to say, nameless and formless, but itself is the source out of everything and we are constituted, the total picture of who we are is that that universal powerhouse which we call God, or Brahman, or the divine cosmic power, or Parashakti, the supreme cosmic energy. She is the actual doer, creator, preserver and destroyer, or resolving everything back to herself. That power actually is the ultimate doer, so that's called Parashakti. That Shakti is an energy that flows down from that higher frequency or higher subtle level through successive layers into this gross world. So visualize yourself that you know I have all these three layers of my being. The grossest is the physical, the subtlest is the mental, and then there's intelligence, but behind that is the ocean and the activity really starts from there. The impulse actually comes from there. When it comes into that intelligence level first layer, so to say then it is called Ichcha Shakti. It is picked up as I will do something. Okay, I wish I will do that. I'll get up, I'll have a bath, I'll take breakfast, I will drive to work.
Speaker 2:There's a will, will will behind every action, if you reflect, and when we are not aware of that higher level, then we appropriate that will to that ego and the ego says I'm willing it. That is not the enlightened way of understanding. That is out of ignorance, avidya. Out of that avidya comes, what is called asmita ayam, the ego sense. And then when it does something it has got, it likes certain things raga, or it does not like certain things dvesha. So in Patanjali Yoga Sutra it's explained that out of that ignorance avidya comes, that I sense asmita and that essence has likes and dislikes, raga and dvesha. And it clings to this body mind complex that it should not this disintegrate. One does not die. So this capsule is bound, now body, mind complex, with the ego. It's not aware of that, that foundation, out of which everything is there. So now, if I explain it this way and you reflect, you will see that, yes, a willpower comes, and that's the subtle will.
Speaker 2:Out of where it comes, I do not know, but it just pops up in your mind and then it flows down a little lower into the mind space and that translates into what is called Jnana Shakti. So Ichcha Shakti becomes Jnana Shakti and in there you understand the method of doing some things. For example, a wish comes that I will have a cup of tea. Then do you know how to make a cup of tea? Okay, in your Jnana Shakti, in the mind space, because you have learnt. Maybe you do not know, you go onto YouTube or you want to make a cake or cook some other dish, you have a desire for that, but you do not know. So you will go and get that knowledge by watching a video or something like that. And when you've got that then you say, oh, I know how to do this. So that you've got that. Then you said, oh, I know how to do this. So that is called jnana shakti. And then it comes, even, becomes more materialized at a physical level, and that is called kriya shakti. Action is happening. So these three flows we are aware of a little bit of that ichcha shakti. We are aware of that more about what's happening in the mind, space, about Jnana Shakti, and some of that will translate into action.
Speaker 2:Kriya Shakti, what Sri Krishna is trying to tell that? Look, that Ichcha Shakti does not pop out of nowhere. It comes out of that higher source which is the Supreme being or our higher self. That being is not somebody else. Actually, it's our own higher self. But it's not a product of the ego. Actually, the energy flows from that supreme level through this intervening stages until it manifests in this physical action.
Speaker 2:Now, the ego that is identified with this body, mind, complex. If it is enlightened, he is aware where the source came from and he says okay, I am just a channel through which that power flowed and the result really belongs to that, because if that was not there then this body will not move, the mind will not think and the ego will also disappear, type of thing. So really I cannot and I should not in truth appropriate to myself the result of that action, because truly I'm not the doer, the doer is the divine. So a spiritual person who has got that conviction and the deep understanding will try to put that perspective in the everyday life and remind oneself that I'm only an instrument in the hands of the divine and have that spirit of surrender. The ego then now is not appropriating itself. The doership says I must and I'll do my best or let the divine walk through me as it wishes. Good comes good, bad comes bad. It is totally detached from the result of work because it knows that it is not the doer and, in actual realization, a realized person in the result of work, because it knows that it is not the doer and, in actual realization, a realized person.
Speaker 2:In the gospel of Sri Ramakrishna he says what is the sign of that somebody has realized God or has self-realized. He says that person is absolutely convinced, not intellectually but out of experience, that God alone is the doer or that cosmic power that's behind the universe alone is a real doer. In ignorance people say they are doer and therefore they suffer. Suffering comes when we appropriate to ourselves that agency. And if you want to have it truly detached, just be an instrument like a pen. Somebody lifts it up and writes it's a beautiful writing, the pen doesn't feel very happy. If it's a miserable, terrible writing, he doesn't feel very bad. It just lets the ink flow. That's its role and the writer actually takes the credit. So ultimately, from the spiritual, when you are enlightened, realize that that would be the perspective. And then you know, in the Bhagavadita, sri krishna says a person who is in that state uh, he is totally detached from the consequences of work.
Speaker 1:Do not touch him but it's hard to get to that state right, because of course it is not easy otherwise so if it was so easy, then you have enlightened yogis walking down the street everywhere but that's ideal. You see, that's the idea that's the idea, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, so at least you know, you have seen how it is, what is to work without that ideal and what are the consequences, all right. And now that you have come across the Vedanta, knowledge and all those things you said, hey, let me apply this and see how do I go back to my work and do things, do I do it better? And, you know, does it affect us? Does it? You know it's not the work is bad, it's how we are affected by it that I think there is a problem, isn't it?
Speaker 2:So here yeah here we can be in the midst of the battlefield of work, take up most challenging difficulties and responsibilities, and yet be totally detached from it, because we are convinced, on that idea, that we are only an instrument. How does it happen? Just by studying the Vedanta philosophy and intellectualizing it? Will it happen? No, no, no, that's just a starting point. We'll have to keep on practicing and practicing, and practicing.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, it's like little baby is crawling, trying to take any support that is there to stand up you know, maybe some furniture or the wall or the parents legs or something slowly takes the first steps, falls few times and ultimately it can you know, stagger and walk and later on it can run and do all the things. So we are like those spiritual babies. So when it comes to practicing this and we take whatever support is there, but at the end of the day, just like the baby will one day grow up and run, we also will become spiritual athletes and be standing on our spiritual feet. But there's a process and it constantly makes efforts. It doesn't know what failure is, it doesn't give up, no matter how many times it falls, and ultimately it stands on its own feet. We have done that. Now this is doing it in a spiritual way, so not to be deterred by any failures. What else you can do? Otherwise you'll be reconciled to crawling whole life. That's no good, you know what if people go?
Speaker 1:well, now that I know that I'm not the doer, therefore I can do anything. I, you know, do things that they normally wouldn't do, because now they can use that as an excuse, um, to do bad things right. So how does that work?
Speaker 2:no, you can't hoodwink the truth. You know you'll be just cheating yourself, fooling yourself. That is actually a? A when you are, you are realized. Only then you can be in that state yes okay, okay, until then. We have to work towards that. You can't fool and cheat yourself, see, because within your own mind you might say something to other people, but does that person really feel that? No, he knows that I'm taking other people for a ride.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's right. So the more I think about this, the way you explained it, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that both perspectives that we started off looking at, you know, the karma, the result and action, and it's attributed to the person that's committed. The action and the second perspective is, you know, is in the degrees of your realization and as you go up the chain, that that second perspective of the Bhagavad Gita becomes is there, is the truth anyway, but that's when it becomes quite real for that realized person. In the meantime, we're all striving to get there and therefore we're still stuck in that karma where there's an action and there's a result of an action, and so on.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you might say why is it all this? So if we asked the wave, asked the ocean, you might say you know, why is it all this? So if we asked, the wave, asked the ocean, you know, okay, why did you create this world where I have forgotten my true nature? And now I'm in ignorance, and in that ignorance I'm doing things and suffering from success and failure and all those type of things. So the ocean will say, hey, look, you know, it's my own sweet will, okay, and that's why it's called Leela. There's no real rationale, you cannot have a reason for it. It's a play. From that perspective, remember, not from the human perspective. And he says since I want this play to go on, the only way I can make it happen is to bring this ignorance, because the moment people will realize the truth, then this play will stop, they will just fly away. Okay, so what he does? He hides that doership, actual doer, and gives us a false sense of a doership, which is our ego. All right, and that ego now is, you know, has pumping himself and wants to take all the credit and name and fame and be famous and be recognized and all those type of things, and that's how the goal goes. Game goes on. But when you get wrecked around a little bit and understand this is so much suffering, then you turn around and say, hey, please put an end to this. And he said, okay, when his grace comes, then he shows that behind this apparent ego is a real doer who dwells within us, in our own heart, so to say. And when that understanding comes up, then the binding effect of work and all those things becomes, loses its binding power, so to say. It's like a rope when you set fire to it it looks like a rope, but it's only a line of ashes. It cannot bind us anymore. So that's why, when does this transition happen? Well, so long as the Jeeva is very happy with this world and is having a great time and wants to come back here and has enjoyments, sufferings and all those things, he's happy. That's when the play is going on nicely.
Speaker 2:Only when one wants to become free from this cycle of what you call happiness and misery and life and death, such a person tries to find out a way, and the way is to like in Swami Vivekananda, when he writes beautifully in karma yoga. He says through the machinery itself is the way to get out of it. That means karma can have a binding effect, it can have a liberating effect. It's like a screwed screw. When you turn it clockwise, it, you tighten it and you learn to turn it anti-clockwise, you loosen it. So you have to have that knowledge which way to turn, otherwise, you know, sometimes you're turning left, sometimes right, and most of the people are in that way.
Speaker 2:When that knowledge comes, which is what Karma Yoga is about, then we constantly try to use karma itself. We turn the screwdriver, but you are always trying to free yourself, not to bind yourself, and that's how you get out of it. So we will be in the. You don't run away from work, you know. So Arjuna wanted to run away. She says no, no, that's not going to work. You know, you have to be in the middle. But learn the art of working, that action that will free us, not bind us. And that is what Karma Yoga is all about.
Speaker 2:And I think it's very, very powerful, but it's only useful for somebody who wants to free himself, you know. Okay, if somebody doesn't have that desire for freedom, well then he says hey, the world is wonderful. There's a few knocks and blows, but by and large it's good. I should come, maybe, you know, in another country, another place, another form. But this world is great.
Speaker 2:You know, many people live under that illusion and they keep on come and get, have these various experiences. But at some point some souls, when they become like old souls, spiritually senior souls, advanced souls, they will say the pendulum of happiness and misery is not the best. What I want is peace. And that peace is at the top of the pendulum, where the string is tied to the point and that is not swinging. And that point is within us, in the spiritual dimension, not the physical dimension, not in the mental dimension, but in that highest dimension. And when we go reach that point within ourselves, then the world will still continue to swing around, but we are not part of it. We are in, spectator, not affected by everything that's going around.
Speaker 2:So that's a beautiful space and that is the idea, perfect ideal that is taught, of Karma Yoga, or all the yogas, sthita Pragna being established in the knowledge that I am not the doer. And yet let the body work, the mind works, everything. But I'm not attached to the result of any work, because I know the electricity flows and the light glows. The bulb does not say I glow because I have this power. It is aware of that invisible electricity which is the source of that energy. Likewise, the mind glows and the body acts, but we know that there's a power that is operating through us and we see every day when that power switches off, the body shuts down and the mind shuts down. And Ram Nam Sathe, we see that every day. So how to be aware of that, of that power that is there, and then engage with the world, because that's the whole secret. Otherwise, we are ignorant of the real force that's within us, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, thank you so much. That was very well explained, at least for me. I have a better understanding of how we can reconcile the two different perspectives. I hope the listeners have been able to follow through as well. So I think that's it for today, swamiji, yes.
Speaker 2:Let us sum it up in one sentence.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Apparently, we have a free will.
Speaker 1:Really we don't well done, thank you. Thank you, sunil.
